I recently travelled to Satyananda Yoga ashram in Mangrove Mtn. where I had a great pleasure to meet Swami Kriyatma. Swami, along with a dedicated team and help of stunning nature, runs a fantastic Yoga community. You can definitely feel that spiritual buzz there!
Q: How did your spiritual journey start?
A: My encounter with yoga started through my mother. Yoga started to be available in the early 60’s and she started attending the classes as householders did in those days. So that’s my first memory, of her teaching me things she has learned in class. That was in the day of fishnet stockings, and leotards. Similarly to my mum, many people in Australia have started their yoga in those days.
My introduction to yoga other than from my mother was at the university. In the early 70’s yoga and counterculture was flowing at that time. I came from quite a strong sport background. I was always physically very fit and quite strong. There was a lot physical awareness of my body, but the technique was lacking.
I started practising yoga basically to improve my surfing, and it helped me extraordinarily. I was practising “Side rowing”, and half of my body was developed and the other half wasn’t. Through yoga I could bring my body back into balance, and ultimately it really helped my surfing. So maybe my motivation to start yoga was a bit material, but it doesn’t matter. It works for you anyway.
I got into some books on yoga, and started practising. And as always, when you become serious about something the teacher arrives. I came to Mangrove for a week in 1983 and Swami Satyananda was visiting at that time. After two days I have rung up the work and told them: catch ya later (laughs).
Q: So that was your turning point in your yoga journey?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember how it felt to make such a big step?
A: Yes, I was very keen on finding answers to questions I hadn’t even managed to articulate. He had formed the questions for me and gave the answers. One of the key topics, which struck a cord in me, was the interconnection between the body and mind. Intellectually it’s very handy to separate our body from our feelings and emotions, but in reality there’s no separation between those two. So there was recognition of the energetic part of who I was, meaning seeing myself as a spirit, not as the material body. He was also teaching Kriya Yoga back then and I took to that instantly. It was rapid introduction to my subconsciousness.
I was exposed to this mixture of practice, and his philosophy, which was a combination of his guru, Swami Shivananda’s teachings and his own practice. His guru was a Vedanti and he also drew from a Tantric tradition. Swami Satyananda, using both, made yoga very accessible to general people.
I remember two great phrases from him from that time:
“If you’re standing at the end of the cliff and you know that to jump is not good for you, then certainly don’t jump. But if you’re not sure, then definitely jump. He said: Say yes to live and don’t let fear to be your guide. Life is rich and benevolent”. That really struck me.
And another one was when somebody has asked him about his personal understanding of the nature of God. His response was: “None of your business. I have my personal thing, and you have yours. I’m here to talk about the science of Yoga and the rest you need to work out by yourself, rather then taking on my experience”. I’ve found that very liberating.
That was his approach at that time of his life. Following his writing I have understood that he was still discovering himself. Later, in India someone had asked him some technical question about yoga. He replied: “Ah, Yoga. I used to be into yoga. In fact I have written many books on this subject. Perhaps you could consult those. And if you can’t find the answers then you should go to…what’s his name? Swami Niranjana. He’s into yoga. Myself? I’ve forgotten all of that. All I’m interested in now is God, and my direct experience of God. I’m happy to talk to you about God. Perhaps we can even talk about cricket. But as far as yoga goes, it was a technique to take me to that experience.”
He said on other occasions too: “If I could find a more direct pathway, I would have taken it. I’d drop yoga tomorrow without hesitation. That was nothing else then the technology to help me find the essential reality”.
Q: So what is yoga to you?
A: It’s a technology; it’s a way of life, applying these technologies to enhance my life. I’m not so personally driven now by higher experience, maybe because I was humbled by this normal life. What I’m really after now is some common sense and capacity to act in a kind and mindful way with people.
Q: I understand that you have begun with yoga as the end and the means to the perfection, but this evolved.
A: That’s right. For many years of my life I was very much focused on my practice, but Kriya Yoga takes you to the point in life, where you realise that in you there is as much as you need to live in the world and go further.
Q: What is Kriya Yoga about in the nutshell?
A: It’s a Kundalini Yoga practise. And as in all Kundalini Yoga practices you balance your ida and pingala nadi to stimulate shushumna and move it from its base to the higher level. In doing that there’s a lot of purification taking place. And that’s what happens when you encounter your subconsciousness with absolutely no distance between. When you gradually develop vairagya, or detachment you learn how to not identify anymore with your thoughts and feelings.
If you can’t do it you are unable to move further in the process. When it took me to this point I was focusing more on what I was getting rid of rather then what I was acquiring. Often we measure progress by what we acquire like knowledge, technique, rather then what we getting rid off. These days I focus more on what I get rid off. That’s my measurement of progress.
Q: What are the specific things you get rid off?
A: Anger, material desires, physical desires and identification with emotions. I’m not saying that I’ve lost my emotions by any means, but my identification with them has reduced with time.
Q: What yoga has to do with gardening? I’ve heard that you’re the person who has started a garden here.
A: One of the things you’ll see here is the focus on Karma Yoga. Karma Yoga is the major yoga practise here, and that’s my yoga these days. Not Kriya, or Hatta, but Karma Yoga.
If I was to define Karma Yoga here, that’s a single point of focus on a task at hand, when the things drop away and we achieve the point of single focus. We start with simple tasks like sweeping, gardening and then bit-by-bit we can efficiently deal with more complex tasks. I can see that gardening plays many roles here in the ashram. Firstly as a Karma Yoga, and secondly as an educational task. So many people who visit here have forgotten the skill of gardening. They don’t know how potatoes or carrots look like when you pull them out of the ground. They don’t know how to plant seeds, harvest or prune. We’ve got the garden to help develop these skills as well as provide good food.
I had the time of my life, when my partner and myself established the first, certified organic garden in Tasmania. Having a bit of the background from there I was able to establish our garden here in Mangrove. When I get into the garden, for me it’s a time to get away from my normal work. Big part of yoga is balance, and when you spend too much time with philosophy, and not in practice, or too much time practicing and not enough time with philosophy that creates imbalance on your path. Middle path is always the best choice. Part of me achieving the middle path is going to do work in the garden. I also believe when you work with such an understanding in mind, then others, by bio-osmosis develop such an understanding too. Garden is just a very good place to mix attitude with some physical action.
Q: My grandfather used to say that he feels closer to God while working in the garden.
A: Yes, there have been many fine poems written on this same topic. It’s such a natural thing for us human to do. It’s natural for us to work, do work with our hands in those elements like soil etc.
Q: Sages say that there are three types of sport recommended for the renunciates: swimming, wrestling, and gardening. Doing that, we are close to the elements of creation, and that keeps us healthy.
A: That’s why I always enjoyed surfing, being close to water and sky, and being focussed on the ether.
Coming back to gardening, I believe that it’s a very important skill to develop as a human. It’s a fundamental skill. Cooking is another one. We should be able to cook and celebrate being human by what we are eating, not just nutritionally imbibing food. It’s fine to do it for a while, to develop tapas (austerity) and not overly identify ourselves with food, but I don’t see anything wrong in enjoying what we are doing. I personally tend to keep myself away from people who are overly serious and extreme. Middle path is the way.
Q: Did you have that extreme period in your life?
A: Yes, as it was part of our generation. We were collectively excessive. And in terms of Purusha-arthas (religious activities namely: artha-knowledge; dharma- religion; kama-pleasures; moksha-liberation) we didn’t go through Artha, we went straight for Kama-sense gratification. And of course all my generation had to go back and deal with Artha (laughs), before we could get to Dharma.
I’m a baby boomer generation, and our generation bypassed all material convenances, went straight into the Kama and later had to deal with it.
Q: Do you see any difference in approach to yoga between the current, and your generation?
A: There’s definitely a shift. One of the things, which was observed in my generation, was a move from dependence to independence. We were very keen on exhibiting our independence in doing whatever we wanted, where as this generation now has much greater sense of interdependence and I call it a higher mind. My generation was very dependent on the family, so what we did, we rejected our families. We went on following our own path, which we called our destiny. And we did it without limitations. We didn’t understand basic limitations, like for example being mindful of those around us. I think we were a selfish generation. I believe that this generation has stronger understanding of interdependence, or higher-mindedness. That’s the biggest difference. Here in the ashram you can observe far more openness and celebration of Karma Yoga. We weren’t so good at it in my generation.
Look at the environmental awareness. Before we used to talk a lot about it and wanted to be involved in big things. Today, young people are involved. They walk their talk. They’re involved in big, and small things. They have global concerns, but they’re also act on practical solutions in their lives.
Q: Do you still experience moments of weakness, or setbacks after being for quite a few years now on this path of self-realisation?
A: I don’t think we escape duality. I don’t think that the goal is to have fewer challenges. The frequency actually increases, but our capacity to deal with them also increases. I don’t find it in any way less challenging living here, than I found it 20 years ago.
The difference is that it doesn’t bother me so much any more. It’s not a question of “let’s bring it on”, since I’m no longer in despair to face these things. I have this confidence now, that in most situations the outcome will be benevolent. In the big picture, the importance of this outcome being positive is being less. I believe that in the larger picture the outcomes are positive, and setbacks are part of life. Without them we will be flat lining.
Q: You might think, being a young person that it is a bit discouraging seeing senior person still experiencing challenges. We often hope that there will be no more problems when we advance on our path.
A: It could be discouraging to some. I think that if people get caught up with the goal at the end being life without challenge, then I don’t think that’s a healthy way to live the present and they will be disappointed down the line. Unless I have just missed the point- and that’s of course possible.
Watching life over the years I can see, and this is obviously without being masochistic, that pain is the crucial principle of the revolution. Without that we don’t develop and expand. If we believe that we can live a life on earth without challenges, that’s a prescription for disappointment. What do you think?
Q: I totally agree. What’s your perspective on the situation in the modern world where on one hand you see the progression towards bad things in general, and on another hand there is a positive shift in this global consciousness?
A: First, nobody really knows what the future is going to be like. It really depends on what we decide what the future is going to be like based on our collective positivity or negativity. I can find plenty of evidence to feel negative about it, and I can find plenty to feel positive about it. I also think that typically things get worse before they get better. This seems to be the way humans learn. On an absolutely personal level, my focus is on the present. That, to me, seems to be a great secret in life: to be NOW.
It’s grand to have goals and aspirations, what have you. If I put it on a scale in order to balance it then the presence is about what is happening now, and it’s more important to me. Celebrate the presence and go with the positive. That becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. On the other hand if you go with a negative, then it also becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So that’s why I remain positive in that area and don’t dwell too much on that.
I know it sounds clichéd, but I believe in “being in NOW and in the present”.
Q: I can totally relate what you’re saying as at this moment I’m reading “The Power of Now” by Eckhart Tolle. You can find it in many scriptures. Paraphrasing Gita : “You can’t experience reality if you’re not in presence”. It looks like this is the only way to live a happy life in this world.
A: Yes. Few years ago I had a wonderful time with one of my teachers. I sat with him and asked: “Please tell me what is the secret. Put all the things aside, let’s stop all other talk, and tell me the secret”. He thought for a second and replied: “This is the secret. It’s now”. So this is the secret for me, and I’m coming from there. I haven’t mastered it by any means, but if I had an aspiration, then it would be to be more in the present. Things, which are taking us away from the present, particularly in the western society, are the identification with the mind, and labelling things in the light of attraction and aversion. That’s our inner dialog. We like that, we don’t like this. We want to avoid this, and we want more of that. Whenever we’re doing that, we are no longer in the present.
Q: I’ll just shift the gears a bit. Do you still conduct the classes, and teach?
A: Yes, but less then previously. I’m involved with Yoga Studies Courses here. I’ll teach when we have gaps, and I’ll fill in there and take a part of it.
Q: Are you the head of the educational department here?
A: Yes, I am, but that’s not a statement of the intellectual attainment. It’s a statement of tenacity of working with bureaucratic matters.
Q: Well, I believe that this is also your humility speaking here.
A: This is at least how I see it. Without any false-humbleness, I can see that I’m pretty good at facilitating that particular department. In terms of teaching, I don’t do a lot of it. I’ll do a percentage of it, particularly at the end of the teaching path, where you concentrate on how you teach a good Satyananda Yoga class. That’s because I have done a lot of that. I’ve got something I can contribute there. The other part I teach is for our local residents.
If I have time I run weekly residents class for people who have been living here for an extended period of time. During that I look at some intermediate or progressive practices. That helps people to have a good experience in the safe environment like this. I think that this is one of the shames that we have perhaps collectively lost the respect of how potent and confronting these practices are if you do them in a regular and strong way. It’s an important thing for our residents to practice them regularly in a safe environment and for an extended period of time.
Q: It looks like you’re trying to create a peaceful and predictable environment where people can live and practice yoga.
A: The word peaceful is a very interesting here (laughs). I don’t think that practice ever ends up peaceful. If you’re doing your practice, there are going to be periods of un-peace. Even without the distractions of being in the city, and the capacity to escape. The ashram here allows one to actually develop the acquaintance with our essential nature. You can’t pretend here being somebody else. You can’t escape from who you are.
Being here seven days a week, 24hrs a day, you will get from people around you feedback in one way or another. So whatever façade you’re holding onto is compelled to fall away. And that’s quite beautiful when that happens. Our ashram is design to not to be that hard on people, being pure tapas (austerity), but it’s designed to be a little bit of tapas going. It’s too easy to become comfortable without that. Where there’s too much comfort the growth doesn’t happen there.
Q: Do you remember your moments of trying to hide here?
A: Yes. I did couple of things here. I came here with quite a bit of personal anger. You know, unresolved anger over my life. My secret was to hide my anger, rather then expressing it. Of course you can express anger positively, or you can express it negatively as well as suppress it. And that’s why you need that bit of this energy here, to stop that suppression. And then hopefully you can express it positively.
Q: So, how can you express it in a positive way?
A: Physical expression as well as hard work and sweat.
Q: To burn the anger?
A: Yes, physically expressing it in a positive way rather then holding onto it, or scaring other people, or yourself with your anger. This approach is being at the heart of this yogic tradition. This is what we are good at. If you look around this place you can see it. Our work ethic is very good. It’s our major sadhana (practice) from breakfast till at least dinner-doing Karma Yoga. They are doing Karma, and hopefully Karma Yoga on the top of that (laughs).
Q: Yes, I can see it. This place looks fantastic. Thank you very much for your time.
A: It’s been a pleasure. Thank you.
